Solar Freaks

Currently, i have seen interest from the following schools.

ASG, Karo
Moorebank, Stilleto
St Pauls, Blur.

These schools are all already in the national event, and my understanding is that the Stilleto team a Blur team are already going to Perth regardless. If Team Karo is also going then, maybe we can have a quick race-off, before the event officially starts, were the two winning teams take the 2 positions??

Any input would be appreciated.

miseli wrote:By the way Tony, is NSW still considering to host the nationals in 2011?

Marc, I would like to see it in NSW next year. I offered, as i think NSW has the resources to host it, and seeing its been in TAS - MELB - PERTH, then its NSW' turn. I think UNSW is a great place for it and we can get heaps of support from the their PV department.

I need to discuss this further with Michael though, but i certainly would like it here.

TonyB wrote:These schools are all already in the national event, and my understanding is that the Stilleto team a Blur team are already going to Perth regardless. If Team Karo is also going then, maybe we can have a quick race-off, before the event officially starts, were the two winning teams take the 2 positions??

Wow. You must all be cashed up in NSW or something. I think Tas will really be pushing it to get 6 cars across.
I can't say for sure but 3 wildcards from NSW is very much a possibility (without the need for any race-offs). With the various state numbers that we were discussing on Monday (including the issued wildcards and international entries), WA would be having to make up a possible 9 or 10 of the 32 entries and so I don't see why an extra NSW entry would do any harm. If I were you I'd send Paul a quick email and run the idea by him.
Maybe give the two teams that most deserve a spot the first two wildcards now and then wait on results and numbers from elsewhere before confirming a third.

TonyB wrote:Marc, I would like to see it in NSW next year. I offered, as i think NSW has the resources to host it, and seeing its been in TAS - MELB - PERTH, then its NSW' turn. I think UNSW is a great place for it and we can get heaps of support from the their PV department.

I think that that is fair and I also agree that UNSW is a great place for the event. The last of my participant years was there in 2006 and, from memory, it was well set out and a very enjoyable event (maybe winning might of had something to do with it ).
There wouldn't be any hefty track freight costs and having the nationals in NSW in 2011 would also certainly give John and I a bit less to do for another year.
Michael was present at the meeting on Monday, but was a little unsure and mentioned that he would take it up with Rob Largent.

Marc

TonyB wrote:
These schools are all already in the national event, and my understanding is that the Stilleto team a Blur team are already going to Perth regardless. If Team Karo is also going then, maybe we can have a quick race-off, before the event officially starts, were the two winning teams take the 2 positions??

Ye, i mentioned earlier that i was going to Perth aswell to support the other ASG car, and ofcourse NSW. A 3 car wildcar entry sounds great to me. The race off doesn't sound to bad either. But a 3 car wildcar sounds much better, easier, less stress and more happy faces.

miseli wrote:Maybe give the two teams that most deserve a spot the first two wildcards now and then wait on results and numbers from elsewhere before confirming a third.

This idea sounds great aswell...

Karo,

Sounds great Tony. I wouldn't mind seeing some more of the top cars first hand from NSW. Last year there was an idea/ talk about allowing schools to have two cars in the top 4. Marc was saying that the competition is so competitive that its highly unlikely that both cars from a school would be in the grand final. If they are seeded 1st and 2nd they should face each other in the semi-final. Marc your in put here! Is it possible to bring it into this years nationals event?

Also what is happening which the plate entry this year? Has there been a decision made yet?

Paul Wellington has ruled out the possibility of a run-off, due to time restrictions.

He suggested we have a run-off before the event here in NSW, or come to a mutual agreement, or even choose the cars based on the performance we saw at the state event.

Any input would be appreciated.

Im fine with anything really. Im just wondering, is there even time to do a run-off here in NSW? So are you going to pull out the track, let us do a couple of runs and pack up. That sounds like alot of work...

But like i said, im fine with anything really... so there is my input!

Karo

Ok all, I'm back online. Just been up on the mountain in the snow after uni.

Tony, did Paul rule out 3 wildcards from NSW? I think that it is very likely that there will be enough spots for 3. I think 7 from NSW and 8 from WA would be more fair than 6 from NSW and 9 from WA.

As I mentioned in my previous post, you lot will have to decide on two for now and then wait on results and numbers from elsewhere before confirming a third. Basing a decision on the results from the state event would probably seem like the easiest way to go, although I very much expect the weather over in WA to be a little different in November.
Looking at the results, Stiletto should be a definite. Things look to be a little tougher to decide between Blur and Karo. I will leave you guys to come to an agreement.

Marc

miseli wrote:I can't say for sure but 3 wildcards from NSW is very much a possibility (without the need for any race-offs). With the various state numbers that we were discussing on Monday (including the issued wildcards and international entries), WA would be having to make up a possible 9 or 10 of the 32 entries and so I don't see why an extra NSW entry would do any harm. If I were you I'd send Paul a quick email and run the idea by him.

miseli wrote:I think that it is very likely that there will be enough spots for 3. I think 7 from NSW and 8 from WA would be more fair than 6 from NSW and 9 from WA.

as marc said tony why dont u try ask (or threaten to bomb someone/something as yr people do hahaha jks) to get all three cars (ASG-Karo, St Pauls-Blur, Moorebank-Stilleto) who would like the opportunity to race in WA a wild card?

dont see how we could have a race off here in NSW before the national event as paul suggested.

If you were to do the wildcards through positions, here they are:

1 - Aether
2 - Shift (data says Bullet fom All Saints Catholic, but they never finished a race from memory)
3 - Stiletto
4 - KARO IV
5 - Efthimiou
6 - Blur

As Viper said, i don't think there will be time for a race off...
I think that the 3-car-wildcard sounds best so far, but that is if it was approved.
But anthing goes for me really

Karo,

jhg wrote:Sounds great Tony. I wouldn't mind seeing some more of the top cars first hand from NSW. Last year there was an idea/ talk about allowing schools to have two cars in the top 4. Marc was saying that the competition is so competitive that its highly unlikely that both cars from a school would be in the grand final. If they are seeded 1st and 2nd they should face each other in the semi-final. Marc your in put here! Is it possible to bring it into this years nationals event?

Yes jhg, I have been looking at getting the "no more than 1 car in the semi-finals" rule cut down to "no more than 1 car in the final (or no more than 2 in the semi finals)". There are a few reasons for this.

The first is to free up the knockout draw. With some schools sometimes entering up to three cars (4 cars has happened before), it means that all these cars will have to knock one another out before before or during the quarter finals to ensure that only one makes the semis. It would get a bit boring having to race your own or the same school 2 or 3 times in a row if you ask me.

The second reason is that the rule was initially brought in about 10 or more years ago when one school would just dominate and finish first and second. In recent years there has however been a lot more of an even spread of the top cars amongst schools and no one school has really had more than one top 4 car.
Yes, there have been quarter finals where schools have had to race off against one another, but I don't think that the losing cars in those encounters would have made the top 4.

Personally, I believe that if a school has done well enough then they should be given the chance of claiming 2 of the top 4 spots.

I have spoken to John and Ian about this and both see no problems with it. I will be sending Paul an email shortly to see what the deal is. There might be a small chance of bringing it for this year's nationals.

jhg wrote:Also what is happening with the plate entry this year? Has there been a decision made yet?

At this stage it looks like the whole plate event and plate re-entry are going to get scrapped and replaced with a whole new system. This new system will be based on a suggestion made by one of the Victorian committee members who is familiar with it being used in Go-kart competitions or something. I am currently still looking at a few different variations of implementing it, but what I can say is that this new format will give every car a second chance. It will add a number of extra rounds between the 1st round and the round of 16. From the round of 16 onwards everything will continue as normal.

Marc

Karo wrote:If you were to do the wildcards through positions, here they are:

1 - Aether
2 - Shift (data says Bullet fom All Saints Catholic, but they never finished a race from memory)
3 - Stiletto
4 - KARO IV
5 - Efthimiou
6 - Blur

Karo, I believe those positions are based on predicted times posted during seeding on Friday. I think that Saturday's results are maybe what decisions should be based upon but it's not up to me to decide. Sunlights were also not being averaged on Friday and so some of the data will be a little out.
As I have mentioned in numerous other posts around the place, the formula that is used for predicting times loses any real accuracy in less than 20% to 30% sunlight (especially with the new rules) and so I would not be putting too much faith in using it to compare times. I think you would be better off comparing race times manually.

This is how I would sort NSW's entries (the teams that finished in the top 4 are automatics):

1 - Aether (1st place)
2 - Shift (2nd place)
3 - Efthimiou (3rd place)
4 - Solaris (4th place)
5 - Stiletto (wildcard)
6 - Blur or Karo IV (wildcard)

Looking at the results from both Friday and Saturday, it looks like Karo IV might have been performing better on Friday in +20% sunlights, while Blur was doing better on Saturday in the lower sunlevels. It's hard to say though.
Maybe Sunsprint should think about racing off the losing quarter finalists next year so that they can then be placed from 5th through to 8th. That should solve any future problems.

I'll tell you what, I'll have a look at making up the new predicted time formula sometime this weekend (I've been meaning to look at it anyway). Then you can re-run all the results through that and compare times.

Marc

Sorry about that,

Whatever happens, happens realy. Ill still go to Perth regardless.

Karo,

miseli wrote:I have been looking at getting the "no more than 1 car in the semi-finals" rule cut down to "no more than 1 car in the final (or no more than 2 in the semi finals)".


At this stage it looks like the whole plate event and plate re-entry are going to get scrapped and replaced with a whole new system. This new system will be based on a suggestion made by one of the Victorian committee members who is familiar with it being used in Go-kart competitions or something. What I can say is that this new format will give every car a second chance. It will add a number of extra rounds between the 1st round and the round of 16.
Marc

I definitely agree/support both ideas and i would like to see them implemented at the national event. Just take into account the time delay on low light if there are additional rounds.

miseli wrote:

Karo wrote:If you were to do the wildcards through positions, here they are:

1 - Aether
2 - Shift (data says Bullet fom All Saints Catholic, but they never finished a race from memory)
3 - Stiletto
4 - KARO IV
5 - Efthimiou
6 - Blur

Karo, I believe those positions are based on predicted times posted during seeding on Friday. I think that Saturday's results are maybe what decisions should be based upon but it's not up to me to decide. Sunlights were also not being averaged on Friday and so some of the data will be a little out.
As I have mentioned in numerous times other posts around the place, the formula that is used for predicting times loses any real accuracy in less than 20% to 30% sunlight (especially with the new rules) and so I would not be putting too much faith in it. I think you would be better off comparing race times manually.

This is how I would sort NSW's entries (the teams that finished in the top 4 are automatics):

1 - Aether (1st place)
2 - Shift (2nd place)
3 - Efthimiou (3rd place)
4 - Solaris (4th place)
5 - Stiletto (wildcard)
6 - Blur or Karo IV (wildcard)

Looking at the results from both Friday and Saturday, it looks like Karo IV might have been performing better on Friday in +20% sunlights, while Blur was doing better on Saturday in the lower sunlevels. It's hard to say though.
Maybe Sunsprint should think about racing off the losing quarter finalists next year so that they can then be placed from 5th through to 8th. That should solve any future problems.

I'll tell you what, I'll have a look at making up the new predicted time formula sometime this weekend (I've been meaning to look at it anyway). Then you can re-run all the results through that and compare times.

Marc

My input concerning with wildcard entries would be similar to what Marc has mentioned. Saturday results were more valid as light averages were taken into account (fridays results, light level predictions were a bit inconsistent in the data). Using the available data, its hard to seperate between Blur and Karo (taking into account that blur had to use a different panel because 1 one the DSE modules broke and had to be replaced).

How many entries will come from SA/QLD/NT/International?

firefly wrote:How many entries will come from SA/QLD/NT/International?

These are the approximate numbers from the last meeting:

International - 2 (yet to be confirmed)
Qld - 2
SA - 1 or 2 (possibly)
Tas - 6 (4 plus 2 wildcards)
NSW - 6 (4 plus 2 wildcards)
Vic - 6 (4 plus 2 wildcards)
NT - 1 (possibly)
WA - the remaining number to bring entries to 32

If there are 2 from overseas and SA and there is an entry from NT, that leaves 7 spots for WA. I don't think that NSW, Tas or Vic would get a third wildcard in that scenario.

If however either SA or NT do not enter a car like at last year's nationals (which is a possibility) and the international entries fall through or are reduced to just the 1 team, then there could be extra spots for a third wildcard from NSW, Tas or Vic.

How about this.......

If NSW are only granted 6 entries and the track is set up before or on Friday at the nationals (it would have to be), can Blur and Karo IV race-off then? Tony could test the panels of the two cars in Sydney and note down the required ballast before you guys fly over. Then it would just be a matter of turning up and sticking the cars on the track. Whoever wins races the next day.
Paul might be OK with that unless he wants team and school names well in advance.

Marc

miseli wrote:If NSW are only granted 6 entries and the track is set up before or on Friday at the nationals (it would have to be), can Blur and Karo IV race-off then? Tony could test the panels of the two cars in Sydney and note down the required ballast before you guys fly over. Then it would just be a matter of turning up and sticking the cars on the track. Whoever wins races the next day.

Paul might be OK with that unless he wants team and school names well in advance.

in this scenario marc if all teams confirmed that u had posted previously leaving either blur or karo to be decided from for the last wildcard position it would be better to decide before the national event rather then at it.

due the the case if either team wants to redesign or completely reconstruct their car for the event there would be no point doing so for one race to see who gets to compete in the national event on the saturday and sunday. maybe if they could use the cars next year but as we know rules always change and that would not be a possibility.

deciding between the 2 teams i think should be based upon the saturday race day data from the sunsprint competition.

or if worse comes to worse there is always flipping a coin.

viper01

With the discussion of the 6 places, can you confirm the Stiletto has an official wilcard please?
We have a lot of work to do if we are to compete in the nationals with a planned wieght reduction program. We are eager to get started ASAP and to confirm with the school that we are officially racing before the holidays begin.
Thanks

To be honest, i have started to construt a new car to take with me to Perth so that i can so some testing. i will be bringing a couple other cars aswell, all for testing. Whether i get wildcard or not doesn't realy alter that, its just a bonus.

Karo,

Viper01 wrote:in this scenario marc if all teams confirmed what u had posted previously leaving either blur or karo to be decided from for the last wildcard position it would be better to decide before the national event rather then at it.

Viper01,

I agree that, if possible, it would be better to decide before the national event rather then at it. I have just put forward the suggestion because Tony asked Paul about doing the same on the Saturday but that was turned down due to time restrictions.

Basing a decision on the results from the state event probably seems like the easiest approach but an actual race between the two would have to be the fairest and most definitive way I think. If big changes are going made for the nationals and cars differ considerably from what was raced at the state event, then a race-off would be even more relevant.
Since setting up the track again in NSW just so these two can race off is a bit over the top, and since both teams will be in WA anyway, racing off in WA on Friday would appear to be a reasonable option (providing that the track will be set up and both teams available).

Viper01 wrote:due the the case if either team wants to redesign or completely reconstruct their car for the event there would be no point doing so for one race to see who gets to compete in the national event on the saturday and sunday.

If either team wants to spend the time and effort modifying, redesigning or completely reconstructing their car between now and the nationals when there is a possibility to fail at the last hurdle, then that is just something that they will need to gamble on.

Just bear in mind that too many modifications between state and national events can be a dangerous business. I have seen cases where teams who have done well in state events have then gone off and attempted to improve the car for the nationals but had the opposite effect eventuate instead.

Stiletto wrote:With the discussion of the 6 places, can you confirm the Stiletto has an official wilcard please?
We have a lot of work to do if we are to compete in the nationals with a planned wieght reduction program. We are eager to get started ASAP and to confirm with the school that we are officially racing before the holidays begin.
Thanks

Tony, who has the final say in NSW?

Karo wrote:To be honest, i have started to construct a new car to take with me to Perth so that i can do some testing. i will be bringing a couple other cars as well, all for testing. Whether i get wildcard or not doesn't really alter that, its just a bonus.

Karo, what kind of testing did you have in mind?

Marc

Paul's recommendation is that we go off the results in the NSW event. Therefore, i choose Stiletto as a guaranteed wildcard.
I think many of you will agree with this choice.

I have yet to make a decision between Blur and Karo. Marc, as you said, a race off on Friday would be the best option.
I will bring this up in the next national meeting and see the recommendation of the committee.

Maybe we can get John Jeffery' opinion about a race off on Friday??